Balancing Urban & Rural Policy in California Government | Mayor Pro Tem Rocky Rhodes, Simi Valley

The Journey of Rocky Rhodes - From Tech to Coffee and Public Service

Join us for an engaging conversation with Mayor Pro Tem Rocky Rhodes of Simi Valley, California, as we explore his unique journey from the high-tech industry to founding a coffee business and eventually delving into public service. This episode dives into the principles of compassionate capitalism, the challenges of urban vs. rural governance, and the importance of maintaining a high quality of life in Simi Valley. Rocky shares insights from his global travels, the economic challenges of housing development, and the fundamental issue of balancing government control and local autonomy. Don't miss this in-depth discussion on sustainable development, the intricacies of city planning, and the ever-evolving political landscape.

00:00 Intro to Rocky Rhodes
00:53 Rocky's Journey to Public Service
01:11 Entrepreneurial Ventures in Coffee Industry
02:56 Compassionate Capitalism Explained
05:47 Global Impact and Cultural Insights
09:31 Challenges in Local Governance
11:22 Housing Projects: Successes and Failures
18:33 Political Philosophy and Government Critique
30:34 The Single Issue Voter Mentality
31:20 The Complexity of the Presidency
32:42 Thanos and Historical Villains
34:16 China's Surveillance and Capitalism
36:56 Cultural Differences and Privacy
40:22 Diversity of Religion
46:46 The Middle Ground in Politics
54:50 Challenges of Bureaucracy and Government Efficiency
58:42 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Evan Meyer: 0:41

Hey everyone, and thank you for joining another Meyerside Chats. I am thrilled to be here today with a super exciting guest. Mayor Pro Tem Rocky Rhodes of Simi Valley, California. His journey to public service is rooted in deep commitment to the community and a diverse professional background. That spans the technology and coffee industries His professional career began in the high tech sector, working with prominent companies like IBM and 9X. This path eventually led him to LA in 1991. In 96, he transitioned from the tech world to follow his passion in the coffee industry, founding Rocky Roaster, a coffee roasting and wholesale business in Canoga Park, California. He successfully operated this business until 2010 when he sold it and moved his family to Simi Valley. Currently, he owns and operates International Coffee Consulting. A business that has taken him around the globe to improve coffee supply chains and foster relationships between producers and consumers. His work in this field is guided by the principle of compassionate capitalism, aiming to enhance the quality of coffee while improving the lives of those who produce it. He's been a member of of Rotary International for over 20 years and actively supports local nonprofits in Simi Valley Rocky focuses on maintaining. The city's high quality of life, advocating for sustainable development and ensuring Simi Valley remains a safe, thriving community for its residents. Sir, it's an honor to have you here today. Thank you.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 2:13

No, be honest. Totally. Did AI write that? Because I'd vote for that guy.

Evan Meyer: 2:20

The honest answer? A little.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 2:24

Awesome.

Evan Meyer: 2:26

It's pretty good though. Well, and it's, it was very, it was very honed with, with information I already found.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 2:32

Right. Excellent. Well, that's pretty good. It's great to be on your podcast. I'm excited to see what the next hour holds. So

Evan Meyer: 2:42

Yeah, we're going to have some fun today. I'm excited to pick your brain and learn more about your experience, how you got here. Your entrepreneurial way of thinking. And, and surely for me that's very relatable when it comes to working in government. So, tell me a little bit about compassionate capitalism and, and what that means to you.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 3:04

in that AI generated thing, there was another line, which is and it's actually a core tenant of the Coffee Quality Institute, which I teach their curriculum around the world. And it's, if you improve the quality of coffee, you can improve the lives of people that produce that coffee. So, what we get to do is help. Coffee producing countries all around the world and coffee producing countries are not the most financially sound countries. I think the term third world is becoming a little outdated, but poverty stricken countries and one way to handle poverty, certain countries is going to throw a whole bunch of money that's never worked ever. But what we can do is improve the quality of the things that they are producing and selling. And if we can do that, they will get more money for the things that they produce and sell. And that's compassionate capitalism. Getting there giving education, giving skill sets, so that It's the hand up and then they can get their their move their way out of poverty. And I, I can honestly say that I have been able to change villages and there is nothing more humbling and gratifying and that I'm more grateful for than the opportunity to get to go and do that, to affect lives. And it's not a ton of knowledge. It's just a little bit. And it just, it goes so far. And so that's compassionate capitalism, teaching people to better themselves, to produce a product or, or get in the system so that they can improve their lives.

Evan Meyer: 4:31

I love that. It's, it's a beautiful way of looking at why you're doing what you're doing and how to do it well, and how to create good value. And at the same time, you know, have a, have a, have an important mission behind it. I think it's so important. And I know this is this has taken you all around the world, right?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 4:52

Yeah. And, and there's a little bit of, if you will, redistribution of wealth going on. I teach this class in coffee producing countries where they can't afford my services. And so that's generally a, a give back. But then I go to first world countries that consume coffee and I teach the exact same class at top dollar and make all of the money that I need to make for, to, for myself to live and be able to give back. And so I'm, I'm taking from those people and charging them for the skills and services because they can afford it and they want to pay for it. And then I go to the the other countries and give that service away where they want the service, but they can't afford it. And that is another example of compassionate capitalism, figuring out how to sustainably be able to give the services and needs to the people that need them by producing a product or creating a product that is sellable.

Evan Meyer: 5:48

Yeah. How how how is this going to these countries and experiencing their way of life and and working with them directly? Well, first, can you give me a few of the places that you've gone to? But but more importantly, how has understanding those cultures shaped how you think about what you do day to day, your perspectives and as a leader in government? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where have

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 6:28

lecture, he didn't speak in English and I barely spoke Spanish, but I asked him, Hey, like, Hey, where can I get a machete like that? And he looked at me like, that's the dumbest question I've ever heard. But hardware store in town, 20 bucks. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Where can I get a machete like that one that's been used in the coffee fields of El Salvador that I can take back to my coffee shop, hand it to my customers, explain where I have been, and they will now touch the earth in El Salvador through this machete and we'll sell so much more El Salvador coffee. Being a very wise capitalist himself, he went bucks and I got his, his dinged up machete used in the coffee fields of El Salvador. The thing about going to these countries is you actually connect, you touch earth where they are. And and the basket is from Myanmar. The placards are from Rwanda Kenya, Indonesia. I, I get to travel these exotic lands and, and meet people, scratch the earth with them, sometimes sleep on dirt floors. And that is, that is the most, the best bonding you can do with someone. And they know that I'm there not for personal gain, but to see if I can help. And how it affects my, my politics. Here's, here's one of the truths that I've brought back, from traveling. I think I've hit 20 countries now in the world, big cities everywhere are big cities anywhere. They have very similar problems of density and growth and traffic and transport and, education and poverty and, places anywhere are rural places everywhere, right? So, the people that scratch the earth, they have a simpler mindset. I'm gonna, I'm gonna love my God. I'm going to love my family. I want to provide enough food and as long as we're safe, I'm good. I don't actually care what happens in politics. And when you actually think about our country, if you've got L. A. In New York and then everything in between, we have two sets of problems in the world. We have the rural people that just like, just leave me alone. Let me be in my life. And we have the large cities that have predominance of the issues and problems because they have the predominance of the people that are in them. And so, the toughest thing for me is to reconcile trying to solve for the cities without. overpowering the rural. And and that's that that's a problem in L. A. L. A. Slash California Central Valley are two different things. a problem for our country. The big cities on the coast and the flyovers in the middle. So, it really helped open my eyes that that there are city problems and rural problems as opposed to, well, they're also government problems, but communists versus democracies. Or constitutional republics, but that that's been opening my eyes and it does affect how I think about working on things in Simi Valley. Uh, I'm rambling a little bit, but Simi Valley, the biggest enemy that we have is Sacramento trying to solve problems for the entire state with one law where that problem is really kind of a city problem. We're a suburb, we're not rural, we're not density city, we're a suburb and our, our problems are different to solve.

Evan Meyer: 9:53

So, where has that been most pressing for Simi Valley

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 9:55

Yeah, housing. It's all. So the way that Sacramento is dealing with the homelessness and housing problem is just build more houses and everything will be okay. Except for the fact that that's demonstrably a false way to to solve that problem. They then force density, solutions. might work in large cities where you have 10 stories of living and two or three stories of commerce and then a transit hub down below because you have that density of people and you need to do that. doesn't work or appeal to Simi Valley. Simi Valley, we are more single family homes, we are spread out, we're low, we don't like things over three stories, but we can still find ways to create housing in a responsible way to get density where density fits. But Sacramento doesn't let us do that. They don't, they've taken piece by piece, they've taken control over our zoning away so that we can't build a plan and this is how housing is going to work in our city. it's super frustrating and I spent a lot of my time now against the, the the laws that have already been passed or in this recent season, the laws that are about to be passed and signed by the governor, because some of them are just stripping more of those rights and abilities for the city to solve their own problems.

Evan Meyer: 11:26

you seen success in an alternative solution, or would you propose that could be successful?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 11:33

So I'm going to do, going to answer with success and failure. And, and why each one is a success and failure. start with the failure. Cause then it'll help me tell you why success is so good. The failure is a project we call the Tapo Alamo apartment complex. It was a project that was forced upon the city. And it was forced because, laws say that if you make so many of your units affordable, then you get bonuses. It can be a parking bonus. You have more dense parking. It can be a height bonus. You can go as high as you want. You can be a density bonus. You can put more units, per, per acre than than other. Things in the city might be and the city can't say no. this developer came in and said, we want to do this. They went to the neighborhood council, neighborhood council said, that's not us. Then they said, well, fine. They went to Planning Commission. Planning Commission said, no, we don't like this project. Came to City Council. We said, no, we don't like this project. And they said, yeah, well, we get to do it anyway. So, they went to build and we stopped them. We used the city. And this is just before I came on. And then, the developer says, that's fine. I'm gonna sue the city. before the ruling came down, Judge gave us some letters that said, So, here's the thing. You're gonna lose. You fight this thing even further, you're going to lose and it's going to cost you a million bucks to fight it. if it was just a million bucks, I might have fought it. If you lose, which you probably will, because it's written in law then you're going to lose all of your zoning rights in Simi Valley. The state takes over all zoning. not only do you lose the money, you lose any ability to control housing. So, very reluctantly, the city council, just before I came on, had to vote yes. I was sitting in the audience and I was I was ticked. I said, this is ridiculous and we shouldn't be doing it, but there was so I call that the bad There's not enough parking. It went to four stories. The density is too high. It's going to create problems with the neighbors and more congestion on the roads. project. Here's a good project. Another developer is developing 280 units, almost the exact same number of units, of apartments on the Tapo Street corridor. And they own the entire swath of land that includes a Walmart several other retail. They're going to half of the retail and put in 280 units. They took the, the density bonus because they're putting in affordable. And they got a fourth story, but they it back. So from the street, you won't even be able to see the fourth story. residents behind went, this is gonna suck. It's gonna look like a giant wall. We hate it. And the developers went, I hear you. And they redesigned the exterior wall to the and did an elevation of it. And the residents went, that's cool. I actually like that better than what I look at now. So they listened, work with, they put more parking than they were required to put in because they knew that they would get better tenants. They have retail on the first floor so you can have live above, you know, loft above and store below for those people that want to live and work in their same shop. It's walking distance to,

Evan Meyer: 14:53

part

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 14:55

it is on a major transit hub transit way. They put the right project in the right place and worked with the city. Didn't take maximum bonuses, but figured out a way that they can make money on the project. And, We love that. So we got our density. We got

Evan Meyer: 15:10

of the

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 15:10

the

Evan Meyer: 15:11

It's

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 15:11

place.

Evan Meyer: 15:12

part of the It's part of the It's part of the

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 15:16

monolith box. Think that that's the right way to go about building density into the city.

Evan Meyer: 15:25

So have you, have you replicated a version of that since?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 15:28

There's been one other project proposed that wasn't retail oriented, but proximity close to retail and transit. And that was just allowed on Erringer. Neither one of these projects have been built, but one other thing that we were able to do with some. For lack of a better term, leftover federal money that we are supposed to use for housing. We given the interest rates are so high, we gave a bridge loan of a million dollars to the developer of this other apartment complex to get them started. They said, if we can bridge this financing, we'll go and we know we need to get something built. So they'll actually start building. other thing that's really frustrating is a city because we don't build anything. We just allow it to be built. Rates where they are and supply costs what they are. No one's building. They have the right to build. Just no one's doing it. And that's super. We've been entitled hundreds and hundreds on thousands of units. of, of housing and they're not being built. So that's frustrating, but

Evan Meyer: 16:29

Sorry, explain a little bit why they're, why they're not being built?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 16:32

yeah. So, in California you have the normal things that slow down building like CEQA and, and rules and regulations just make it long. Given the interest rates right now, developers aren't just coming up with a hundred million dollars to put in, they're borrowing that money. And if they're borrowing that money at. 7 percent as opposed to 3%. puts a huge dent in figuring out the profitability of that project. So they're more likely to see if interest rates come down in the near future so that they can make them. I mean,

Evan Meyer: 17:07

Yep.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 17:07

of a million boxes is a chunk of change and they've got to Turn a profit on these units. So, that generally delays them. There was, it's eased now, but there was the whole supply chain problem where I think if you remember when we were in the midst of that plywood was like times the cost that plywood was a few months

Evan Meyer: 17:25

Mm hmm.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 17:26

That

Evan Meyer: 17:26

I remember that.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 17:27

its way back down. So there's still elevated costs, but they're more towards reasonable and interest rates are on their way down. And hopefully the, you know, the fed will do what they need to do. And

Evan Meyer: 17:40

So it's economic, it's economically not motivating at the moment.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 17:44

That's correct. I mean, compassionate capitalism. I want you to build a house. Yeah, but I'm not gonna do it if I lose money. Okay, let's see if we can come up with a thing. And for for the city, loaning that 1, 000, 000 for less than 15 years will get that paid back. We can loan it to somebody else. That will actually get them to start now instead of continue to wait. So think that was a success for the city to, to Push some housing forward.

Evan Meyer: 18:12

Do you think you're, the way that, that you're thinking about this now is useful for a lot of the smaller cities? or more rural areas

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 18:24

Yeah. So, so I think every city should be allowed to do what they're going to do. And here's, here's a problem with government and maybe this is a deeper philosophical problem with government

Evan Meyer: 18:41

Let's get into it.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 18:42

see a problem and they go, I'm going to fix this problem. And they come up with a new rule for everyone, right? For every law there was something that caused that to be a law. So let's assume of the 482 cities in California that, 10 percent of them are going to be run poorly by bad city man city councils that are going to say it's my little kingdom here and I'm going to do whatever I want and I'm going to block all things. So 10 percent bad, And 90 percent of people trying to do what's right for their community and grow responsibly. And that's, that's what it is about grow responsibly. will look at the 10 percent and go, we need to solve that problem. There's bad actors out there and we know better. And so they create a law that covers all 100 percent of cities. And why, why are we under this rule? Now we were doing just fine and creating housing and, and meeting the needs of our people. We understand that we're a Valley. that doesn't have any more floor space to grow. We can only infill. We don't have a lot more commerce that can come here for people to work at. So if we keep adding people, they're gonna have to drive out of the valley in order to get work. We understand our situations. Just let us be. If Sacramento would get out of the way, cities would build housing, and 90 percent of the people would be responsible, and then 10 percent go crack down on them. right? Get them straight, but let the rest do their thing. Instead, they just create laws to get in the way

Evan Meyer: 20:20

Why do you feel that there's that kind of like us and them from where, yeah, right there. The goal is to represent everybody successfully, ideally, but where is that coming from?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 20:33

it's mind boggling that people of many of the representatives in the assembly and so on came from city councils then move up into Sacramento and I don't do their job. But from my perspective, it looks like they've lost their minds. that there's some other wheeling and dealing that has to be going on to get what they want. So here's, here's what I think the true problem is currently, because other states aren't like this. Other states have a more divided government, and therefore they actually have to talk with each other, work on things, and come up with responsible laws. We have a super majority in Sacramento, and you can throw enough stuff at the wall, something's gonna stick, and may not have been discussed or thought out or whatever. And I don't see counterbalance to a lot of the stuff that that's coming out. So cities like us have to raise our hands and scream, but small cities don't work. So we band together with League of Cities and Southern California of Governments and we try and join with other groups to go give us local control. And that just doesn't seem to happen. So until we get back to a less than super majority, Of one party in Sacramento, this is going to continue. And by the way, I'm not advocating for a supermajority the other way either. That would just be the problem in reverse.

Evan Meyer: 22:00

Right.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 22:01

care for some of the outcomes more because I'm from the minority side in Sacramento, but having a supermajority sucks. In, in federal, when we have The House, the Senate and the president all under party. That makes me extremely nervous. I like having it very, very close in the houses. So you actually still have to talk to each other to get something done. Otherwise it can be stopped in Sacramento. We can't stop stupid.

Evan Meyer: 22:33

Yeah. It, it seems that It doesn't matter which side would have a supermajority when you, when you lose diversity of thought,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 22:46

Correct. There, that's it. Perfect.

Evan Meyer: 22:49

And we, we talk about diversity in all sorts of ways in California.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 22:53

Mm hmm.

Evan Meyer: 22:55

Except, except the one, the one that sometimes gets missed, maybe diversity of thought when it comes to, for example, a super majority, right? Like it's, it's interesting that that's not considered. Not necessarily that it should be some sort of but like that it would be an important consideration for how to manage an institution or an organization or a state and say, do we have the right board? Of directors or does everyone on the board tend to think one way right like then you'd say well We need to diversify our board. So

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 23:32

what elections are for. I'm not a hundred percent sure why it doesn't end up being more. There is other than the populace has actually spoken and that represents of California. I don't really think it does. I think it's, it's stilted, but yeah, that's what elections are for here. Here's where I think we are as a country, maybe a little bit different California, but I think that we've got 10 percent wingdings on the right. We got 10 percent wingdings on the left and the rest of us live, the 80 percent of us live in the middle and, and. diversity of thought within the middle. It's a great thing. Just having the two louds on either end yelling at each other. That doesn't actually solve anything either. That the extremes I'm both in. So if we could just get the 80 percent elected, we would have that diversity of thought. Even if it was of a single party, there's a

Evan Meyer: 24:25

Sure

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 24:26

of politicians up there that just produce massively Extreme bills and thank God, some of them get killed, but they're doing it just for, for show. But,

Evan Meyer: 24:38

Because and you know things those things are pr worthy, you know at some point money and pr are are part of the equation where it's like, will that get attention? And that ends up often fitting into that 10 percent you're talking about okay, well then, then, and the world tends to think that the whole state is just in these extremes where it's not, you're just getting thrown that in your algorithm because you click on it faster and they make money on it. So it's like. And most people seem to, like, when I bring that up to people, they seem to understand the algorithm that they're being fed, you know, in an echo chamber that the extreme viewpoints take dominate the engagement portion of the algorithm. And that's why you're seeing it. You're not seeing the normal person, like actually. Everything's okay. I got a little issue here, a little issue there. Everything extreme issue. We have to solve the crisis. And well, look, you've, you've, you've run for office. So how is it different in how you've run, right? And how you've related to people to get their vote versus we'll call it versus the problem.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 25:49

So it's interesting. Some inside baseball and politics then on there's two jobs for every elected person, getting elected, being elected. And I know a whole bunch of people that have just be outstanding in the position, but they don't have a bone in their body to be able to figure out how to get elected. And. If if our if our presidential election isn't a case study in throw the red meat to your base so that you will rally them to vote. I don't know what is for me. I went about it a little bit differently. I said, Hey, I want to talk to everybody because. I think I'm an approachable person, and I think that I willingly take questions and answer questions, and it may not be the answer you want to hear, but at least you know where I am, and you have the opportunity to change my mind when running for office. One of the strategies is knock on every door in your district. And since seeing Valley went to districting, which is a whole another stupid conversation, it just doesn't work here. The districts are small. And I was able to, myself and my team, knock on every door, but I, I looked at the list like this, we get a list of who, what the voters are in the House, number of Republicans, number of Democrats, number of Independents, and I say, all the people that are high propensity voters to me, I let the team go and talk to them, they were probably going to say yes anyway, and I took all of the precincts that had the most people that are least likely to vote for me, and I went and knocked on their doors. And it is amazing when you're not behind the keyboard and you actually talk to someone face to face, how they go, huh, reasonable. You actually listen to me. You talk to me. So politics, if we can get out from behind the keyboards and actually meet each other, more town halls, that sort of thing, then will become better. It will be returned to some sense of civility. And I went to my worst critics homes. said, right, what do you want to say here to my face? Not here on the keyboard. And things got more civil.

Evan Meyer: 28:04

Well, let me bring it full circle. If we would just have a coffee with somebody. You probably realize how much you have in common before you start getting into where you disagree about exactly, exactly. If you would just get out in the field with a machete, head out, meet some strangers, get out to the jungle,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 28:23

Walk in somebody's shoes. Yeah, and that's it. I, of the skill sets that I have one is I can align. I can find something with every single person that we can find common ground on. And we start there and then we have our conversation. you know, where did you go to school? How many kids do you have? Just get something where we can agree that this is a commonality between us. Once we have that, then the rest is a conversation.

Evan Meyer: 28:56

And you have way more in common with people as humans than we do that we disagree with. Somehow, somehow it's like, it seems like what happens is you watch, some news channel and you listen to the way they speak. About people and issues. And it's so attacking all the time. It's so attacking, even, I mean, you could just say, I don't agree and not attack,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 29:22

Yeah,

Evan Meyer: 29:23

but the attacking is what gets clicks and makes money and people know that, but you'd think that people could get past that and say, oh, okay. Well, all I'm doing right now is getting emotionally invested in this. They're, they're, they're doing that intentionally. And just because this person thinks, even so, if I could look past that, just because this person thinks differently than me doesn't automatically mean that I should ascribe every set of terrible values that they may have to that person and think that that, right? You're hearing one instance in a chopped up story with layers of filters and cognitive biases and storytelling and agendas, right? Like so, so much. And then you think you could say, well, I don't necessarily have to say that. That's like. That person's miserable because they think that way about one thing. I don't know what room they're sitting in when they had the original conversation before it got to me. They're not telling me everything. Right.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 30:21

right. One of the things that that lends to that is this whole litmus test thing, If there's one topic that we disagree on, then I can't talk to you anymore, right? Because you're not on my side. Like, really? If we agree about 99 percent of the things out of 100 topics, we're good on 99, but that one,

Evan Meyer: 30:41

Yeah.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 30:42

And it's

Evan Meyer: 30:43

Yeah. There's no turning back on that one. There's no turning back. The biggest one I've found tends to be on abortion. Where if you, if you take the alternative position, the other side will say, I can't even, I It doesn't matter what the president does, thinks, or, or how they act. If you vote yes or you vote no, I'm voting for the other person. Right? And

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 31:06

I wish

Evan Meyer: 31:06

an interesting thought. That just shows the single issue voter mentality so often. Right?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 31:10

I wish the presidency was so simple that it only had to deal with one thing there done. And, and now you can make your decision on the vote on that, on that person.

Evan Meyer: 31:20

Right.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 31:22

uh, you've got to look at the entire slate of capabilities to be able to deal with an amazing amount of so, Being president has to be the most mind boggling job on the face of the planet. When you think about, okay, in one day, I got to fly overseas and I got to negotiate trade deals with adversaries. And then I got to go to the Middle East and I've got to try and figure out how I can get people to shake hands and talk to each other instead of shoot at each other and blow each other up. then I've got, it's, one has that skillset going in. No one has the completion. They might have one area. Like Trump businessman, right? He, I actually liked the way that he handles trade. Great. The other skill sets, not his, you know, main thing that he did his whole life. So, it finding someone that has that balance diversity of everything. Say that I'm a jack of all trades and a master of one. I'm good at coffee and, and the rest of it is, I'm figuring it out as I go. I just happen to be a pretty quick learn and I read staff reports. But it's a, it's a, it's a tough job being even the city level. It's a tough job trying to figure out all the things and do the right thing. And not everybody's happy with you.

Evan Meyer: 32:39

That's part of leadership, right? Is being willing to be unlike them. Um, having what it takes to do what you believe is right in the face of, I mean, I always use the Thanos example. I, Thanos is, do you know what I'm talking about? This is like the reason why I thought that was so, important for those listening who don't know the Thanos, it's from the Avenger, from the Avengers. Two movie series end of end of days. I forget, I forget the name of the thing. But Thanos is such a significant, he's one of my favorite villains because I think he, the comment, the, the social commentary on history is so important where it's just, that's classic. One, person's villain is another person's hero in some eyes, like Mao Zedong was one of those. Right. Where he's like, okay, more people lost their lives under his leadership, arguably than any other leader ever, something like a hundred million, I think, is the estimate or something. I mean, some crazy number of like, you know, and here he is into some people think that if you, when you look past human life,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 33:48

So that stuff,

Evan Meyer: 33:50

you can you can bring China to to be a, a global leader. And that's what it took. Thanos, similarly, the world will be peaceful if I could just get rid of half the people. I mean, it's a creep. Yeah. It's so important. I think that was such an important movie for that, for just for the, to watch that character.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 34:17

Let's talk about China for a second. you brought up, I get this year I was scheduled to go to China nine different times and we ended up canceling some classes. So I'll still probably make it there about six times this year. over the past few years, I've done a lot of traveling back and forth. And it is fascinating to me conversations with my friends there about the differences in our governments. Gosh, now that I'm saying this out loud on a podcast and I'm leaving for China in like, 10 days. Hmm. Well, I'll say it anyway. It's, it's just fascinating that everything about your life. Every piece of information is, is the right of the government to have, and they have it. They, they transact everything on about three apps on their phone. almost, it's becoming near cashless society because they transact on WeChat. They do their, we text like their Facebook. Didi is their Uber and Alibaba is their Amazon and, and they transact everything on their phones and stuff shows up not in days, but in hours Shanghai anyway. And it's, it is fascinating, but there's cameras across the streets. There's cameras across the sidewalk doing facial recognition and, and and see, I asked my friends, does that bother you to have every bit of your life? by the government and they went, no, that's what keeps us safe. Explain that. So, well, Rocky, if I were going to steal your wallet. One, they probably know I was going to steal it in the first place, but two, by the time I got home, the police would be there because they could track me and the wallet all the way back home, and that's why we don't steal anything. And it hit me that all of the people that I'm talking to are under 65 years old, and so they've never known anything other than the government having control over your life. On the opposite end, capitalism is alive and well in China to an extent. capitalism. And as soon as you become awesome at what you're doing, all of a sudden you get a new partner. And the new partner says hi, I'm the government. I'm here to help. And they get to dictate how much you grow and who you get to grow with and that sort of thing. So it's interesting. And most of the capitalists come from being trained outside of China and then come back to run their businesses, taking advantage of a very low labor cost in their

Evan Meyer: 36:48

Sure. Well, essentially, there's trade offs, right, with each style and the things that we value here. certain freedoms, limited regulation, freedom of speech, you know, things that are, that, that will say that America holds as its highest, most important values are, are not necessarily things that they're maybe even raised with there, that they would even consider that, because when it comes to, say, safety, as you just mentioned, Well, maybe I'll give up some speech and privacy and, and freedoms if it means that cops are X times more effective when that happens. And, and I'm not defending it, but I can, you know, this is a matter of thinking about when you travel, that your way isn't always the right way all the time.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 37:41

That's

Evan Meyer: 37:41

And it's not about China or the government in this case. It's just, it's just that we're very quick. To say how terrible things are to every, everything else, but the way we think. And when it comes down to it, when I was traveling in countries like Vietnam or Cuba, I found some of the happiest people

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 38:00

Exactly.

Evan Meyer: 38:01

seen who didn't have, who had a mattress, if at all on the floor with no windows or doors.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 38:08

Exactly. Difference between city and rural. I found extremely happy people that had no idea what the communist party was really even all about. When I went out to the cot, there's coffee fields in the South of China. And and we just get out with the farmers. Well, that stuff is irrelevant.

Evan Meyer: 38:26

Right.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 38:27

of the conversation though, when I said, well, about the safety in China. And I said, well, In the U. S. We at least want to believe we have a right to privacy. Now I know that I carry a device in my pocket all the time that's listening to me at every moment waiting to give me information if I ask for it. And there's cameras everywhere. So I want to believe I have privacy, I said. But for safety, I said in the U. S. We have this thing called the Second Amendment. And if you wanted to steal my wallet, you actually don't know if I'm packing and and going to pull out a gun and shoot you for trying to steal my wallet. And that's what that gives us our sense of safety. And they looked at me like that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. That's why you have school shootings. That's why you have everything. And the prism that we look through life with is it's very interesting.

Evan Meyer: 39:16

Yep. And, and that's, and that's,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 39:19

insight.

Evan Meyer: 39:20

That's the perfect example of, of, of a pot, like something it's very complicated. We're not, we're not a simple society. We have lots of different people from everywhere with all sorts of traumas, historical traumas that people have dealt with. We've, we're, we're a melting pot, a beautiful melting pot country that comes with, so I should say what it doesn't come with is one size fits all approaches to things. It makes it harder.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 39:50

and yet government thinks that that's the great way to do it. We have a one size that fits all solutions to things. I'm like, stop it.

Evan Meyer: 39:57

Yeah,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 39:58

Yeah,

Evan Meyer: 39:59

is, which is interesting that you have that perspective, given that, you know, again, like we, the state, at least, at least vocally communicates its level of, of support for, of diversity in so many different ways, which is again, a wonderful thing until it's, I guess, until you're like, well, how come you're not considering this piece of diversity?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 40:27

God, we haven't even touched on religion yet either, but diversity of religion in the U. S. I think is absolutely one of the cornerstones of why we are successful, even though we're based on Judeo Christian values and that's sort of enshrined in throughout the Constitution. It is the fact that everyone can come here and bring their religion with them and worship the way they want, and we're like, that's okay. No, In all of my travels, I don't do a lot in Europe, right? So in a lot of my travels, though, it's very monotheistic non countries that I go to. And and I think that there's just such a richness to, to having that diversity of thought. from a religious standpoint, too.

Evan Meyer: 41:12

I find religions, the study of religions to be a fascinating, even just understanding why people think the way they do. Even if you weren't religious, like the importance of reading the Bible, forget about the religion. If you just look at it as a, as, as, even if, If you said it's a sliver of truth with a lot of elaboration that is supposed to have some sort of meaning to it,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 41:42

There's

Evan Meyer: 41:42

even if

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 41:43

in there.

Evan Meyer: 41:44

there's, well, you would read it as something that's been around for so long, like, even if, it's important to understand perspective. So that's one perspective. You don't even have to be religious, but to not understand that perspective of why people feel. I mean, these stories are just things that we've, we've adopted into our way of being, especially in Western culture as, as I should say, it's the foundations of Western culture. It's the, it's, it's, it's, it is, it is why we think the way we do, even if it's wrong or untrue, the Truth is separate from narrative and storytelling as the news makes it very clear. And it's always been that way. It's like it, it starts from there with the Torah through the Old Testament and into the New Testament. but it's important stuff and I think that's just, it's a slice of the pie of knowledge. That gives people saying, well, why, why would people be religious in the first place? Well, if you have to ask that question, you should go and read and understand. If you say, I don't understand why anyone could vote for Trump, or I don't understand why anyone is gonna vote for Kamala, You should go talk to people and learn why.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 43:01

Learn why. and, and, well, to that one, I don't think anybody's voting for anybody. I think they're voting against somebody in this

Evan Meyer: 43:09

Right.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 43:10

maybe that's I have a quick story, maybe, I hope it's quick, I hope it's interesting, about, diversity of religion. And, I did a lot of work in Indonesia when I first started in the coffee training and consulting. And one time I got to go on a, I taught a class in Jakarta, the big city. And I said, I really want to see the coffee fields of Indonesia. They're the third or fourth largest coffee producer, depending on the year. And I want to go see some of this. So I went, great, fly across the island of Java to this city. And Lucianto, who was in my class, he's a scientist for the. Indonesia Coffee and Cocoa Research Institute, ICRI, and he'll meet you, take you to ICRI, and then you'll get in the car, and you'll go up into the volcano, and you'll see these coffee fields. I'm like, awesome! So I get there, and then I realize I don't speak any Bahasa, and doesn't speak any English, but we speak coffee. And I also didn't realize that once we got through the thing at the at Ikri, the center, and we got in the car, it was a five hour ride out to the volcano. Like, okay, I got five hours in the car with a guy who doesn't speak English. This is pre Google Translate, and I had a book, the Indonesia to English Translate. And we had five hours, so, with the occasional interruption of call to prayer, would pull off the road, they'd go into the gas station, they'd pray, they'd come back out, and we would continue our conversation. I said, what do you pray for? It took a while. What do you pray for when you pray? had the weirdest answer. He said, I pray for health of my family. Peace and a little bit of prosperity. I'm like, see, there's where we're different. I would never pray for those things. That's so strange and different that we'd want that. And it just, it became a really bonding moment between he and I, and not only do we break a lot of bread together but we actually got to, to share a moment that we even have the same belief structure under. Different gods or different deities of how you get there. But it, yeah, it was interesting. It was super

Evan Meyer: 45:18

Wow. Yeah. It's amazing how, how complacent we get as people with everything we have and everything we think all of a sudden you just adapt immediately and that becomes your norm. And you forget that at the most, I think, I think people forget at the most basic level, we're the same. When you, when you, when you subtract your, your apartment, your, your, your first world apartment with great plumbing and hot water, unlimited amounts of hot water and toilets that flush and, and

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 45:50

that goes on when you flick the switch.

Evan Meyer: 45:52

immediately goes on when you flick with cheap light bulbs that can be replaced immediately. you just start to forget that, you start thinking again that there's like an us and them, and it's just the most basic level. We're all the we're all the same. So let me ask you this. What needs to be done in order Obviously trust in government has been eroding devolving as far as I can tell. It's

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 46:21

That's a very nice word. No, it's eroding. It's yeah.

Evan Meyer: 46:25

eroding

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 46:26

Yeah. No evolving as, as I think the the kind of twist on that spin on the back.

Evan Meyer: 46:32

Devolving.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 46:33

devolving. Yes, absolutely. A

Evan Meyer: 46:34

It's eroding and devolving.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 46:37

devolving. Okay. Got it.

Evan Meyer: 46:38

it's evolving for the worst. As far as I can tell and it's, it seems to be at the worst it's ever been. I've been doing these, trying to understand the nature of, I've started coming from a perspective of people just need to have some civic humility about what they think, why they think they're right all the time after watching the news or social media, and it doesn't seem to be happening. Like people still get deep in their echo chambers and think they have all the information and everyone else who has a different story is. An idiot and what needs to happen in your from your perspective to create

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 47:17

I think I actually have this answer it came to me and I'll even tell you when it came to me. I got the news feed that the previous president had an assassination attempt. And I went, Oh crap. turned on the news and I watched the replay over and over again of this, this attempted assassination of Trump. And I went, how did we get to this? here. And I also experienced the same thing during the riots way back when I had to drive my car down into the riot zone because it didn't didn't fit. It didn't make sense to me. And when I got there, It's the same sense of, of desperation when words you're when, when Hitler and genocide and xenophobe and when words no longer have anywhere to go, you can't escalate any further than Hitler. Right? Right. And so what's the next logical conclusion? Are you going to push somebody? And then you're going to push back and, and so we've run out of places for words to go. Where's the solution? The words are coming from the extremes, the 10 percent and the 10 percent on either side. That's where the words are coming from. The 80 percent in the middle have been silent because they didn't want to be cancelled by the 10 percent on either side. So the solution is the 80 percent of us in the middle that go that stupid and that stupid need to call out stupid on both sides. Not one side or the other need to call out stupid on both sides. If media would say, You're no longer going to be allowed on our network if you continue this type of dangerous, hateful rhetoric because we're not going to publicize it. And now it's going to damage their ratings because going on, as you said, the algorithm shows that every time that someone screams evil, then go up. But if the, if we took a responsibility within ourselves to call out stupid on both sides, To call it hostile on both sides, then we're going to get to a place where the middle will rise up and no longer fear being canceled or yelled at or screamed at. But if we don't, then we're going to be oppressed by these extremes as they shoot at each other right over our heads. And we're going to get caught in the, in the, in the crossfire. So the solution is stand up and gently call out ignorance on both sides.

Evan Meyer: 49:44

Do you do this as mayor pro tem in Simi Valley? How do you enact this kind of this, this beautiful philosophy?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 49:52

I will tell you that the extremes are maybe even less than 10 and 10 in Simi Valley. I would say the majority of the people live in the 90 percent of the middle, and there's five and five. absolutely, I do. We our city council meetings, we will often get the 5 percent from one side and in other meetings where I'm out like the I'm part of the Republican Central Committee. And we will get stupid in and I will call it out in the middle of like if you want to keep failing in in life and moving people. Just keep doing what you're doing. Keep being loud, extreme, obnoxious and people will keep treating you the same way and you will get nothing done. I call it out there. It's tough and on the dais, you're not allowed to really call out a lot of the people, especially if they're citizens. But they know there's ways of saying you're not gonna get what you want. And yes, I I feel confident enough in my, here's two things. I feel confident enough in myself and where I stand on things that I live in that 80 percent common sense middle that I can have the conversations and I know where, where the line of stupid and sensible lie on either end. The other thing is, I actually don't care if I get reelected. gonna do the best I can I love what I'm doing and it's fascinating to me and I'm super glad it's me in this in the chair making really good strategic decisions because I can see some of these other people that would make him a scare me. if I didn't get elected again and but I spoke my truth the whole time, be it. I think that it's just been making me stronger by being able to, you know, Calmly stay in the middle and deal with both sides.

Evan Meyer: 51:47

Do you think some of that comes from the, the, the ways of being that are required in order to be a successful entrepreneur,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 51:58

Yes. Yes. You're if you realize that every single citizen is your customer and you want to do what's right for the customer that you will be a stronger business, stronger city, then you're in the right mindset. And that's a good entrepreneurial mindset. But I did, hang a sign in the back of my coffee shop and and it was for the baristas and it said sometimes the customers full of crap, but only I get to tell them and and that happens, right?

Evan Meyer: 52:28

that's very Larry David.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 52:29

Yeah.

Evan Meyer: 52:33

I forgot, I forget what this coffee, the coffee shop episode, there's a, there's something he puts on the customers. I forget what it was. Okay. It's funny though.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 52:44

Yeah, we, in retail, in business, you get a 5 percent of the crazies. I, I banned a couple of people from my coffee shop forever because they were stupid. would either berate my employees and like, don't ever come back. Had one guy says, I make a living by going into retail establishments and finding out how they're not ADA compliant and blackmailing them. I'm like, really get out, never come back to my store. He thought that that was some sort of brilliance. And I think it's just the dredge of humanity. So entrepreneurialism and realizing who your customer is. I think they go hand in hand

Evan Meyer: 53:20

Why aren't there more entrepreneurs in government?.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 53:23

because they're busy doing their, their business, busy doing their job. That's why there's a lot of old people in government. Until my kids got up and out of the house, I was concentrating my business and, I'm in a blessed position now where my kids are comfortably, and through school. One's got a couple more weeks to go and he'll be through school. And my business is one that's extremely flexible. And since My calendar for government stuff is set in December for the whole year. I can fit my work in between. Another entrepreneurial flexibility that you can, you can do that. But yeah, if I had to work eight hours a day in a real job, and I do work eight hours a day. They just sometimes at midnight to three weird hours because

Evan Meyer: 54:08

Yeah,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 54:09

zones, but yeah, it's tough for people to give up their business. And they're also responsible for tons of employees and making sure that they're successful.

Evan Meyer: 54:19

yeah. It feels, it feels, you know, I've, I've always wished there'd be more engineers for problem solving and, and entrepreneurs for creativity, you know, problem solving with creativity and, and how to look at. Thinking about people as customers, and, and, you know, in government, that's such, that's such an important thing. And, and they, in fact, are your customers.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 54:46

They

Evan Meyer: 54:46

They're, they're paying your salary right? In essence, there's, there's a level of that. But it seems like the culture, the differences of culture in a government organization and a business are so radically different and, and the way that bureaucracy is thought about, like, like sometimes if you tell someone in government, sometimes not all the time, like, Hey, I can make your job more efficient if you, all you have to do is use AI and you can like do that in a second, or like, here's some good software sometimes, and again, I'm not speaking for everyone. It's like, well, then what am I going to do all day?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 55:24

Right? Right. Exactly. Well, you're going to be creative and you're going to find something else. You're going to expand the services of the city. Right. Yeah.

Evan Meyer: 55:31

How about represent more people better?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 55:34

Right. it's true. I have so many frustrations with bureaucracy. And, and maybe this, this actually works in entrepreneur. When I was an entrepreneur, I had like five different versions of the health department that came and inspected my place. I'm like, why are you here? It's like, because somebody stupid did something wrong and we have to make sure you do it right. Okay. rules. It finally hit me. Government rules are there. protect all of us from the dumbest amongst us, the Darwin award winners, right? Now, what if government hasn't figured out is how to fast track the responsible, ethical people that are going to do it right. And so we're all subject to the same amount of slow to make sure that stupid doesn't get through. If we can figure that out, A. I might be a great tool in, in, in Looking at the background of a particular person and you're gonna make horrible decisions. You're on this path and oh, you've done this before you go on this path. That would be that would be a great boon for government working for everyone. Not just that blanket rule for everybody.

Evan Meyer: 56:43

Yeah, it seems to me that there's a lot of cultural shifts that could happen. That could make things, you know, to think about efficient, but the government is my experience in many years, working with government or for government. Efficiency is not part of the conversation. Yeah, outcomes are another one that doesn't seem to be Well, we invested five billion. What are the outcomes? What did we learn? Can we do it better next time? We're investing that money into something. It's easy to say there's a lot of investment and money put into something But if you didn't get out what you expected, what hypothesis, hypotheses were you testing? What did you learn? How did you get to the outcomes you needed to get to eventually? Right?

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 57:28

if you want to get me on a just a hateful role, just ask me about MTA, our transit system in Simi and every other city of our size, everywhere in the country that doesn't work. And it's just throwing stupid money after stupid money. And I like, I raised my hand the first day I was being introduced. I'm like, I can fix this. yeah, but that's not allowed by the federal government. I'm like, oh, I just want to smash my head. And, and every time that topic comes up, I get, cause it's so inefficient. It's so horrible. It's such a boondoggle waste of money.

Evan Meyer: 58:03

I remember hearing a story about like a canopy at a school in order to put shade, it costs, given all the rules and regulations and everything that needed to, it was like, I want to say like 20 by 20 shade structure ended up caught immediately. It would have to cost 150, 000 or something. Because of all the things in between, yeah,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 58:27

inefficiency at its best. Yeah.

Evan Meyer: 58:30

maybe, maybe our next podcast, we'll get into bureaucracy and inefficiency.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 58:35

Start with transit.

Evan Meyer: 58:38

Start with transit. Okay, I'll tell him.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 58:41

All right. Cool.

Evan Meyer: 58:43

that is our hour. And. What a great conversation. I'm grateful to have had you on. I think this is wonderful. Thanks for taking your time and sharing. I think people need to hear that, you know, the main thing here is that difference between big city and small city or urban and rural is really the thing that if we can respect our differences and understand that it's not even California versus Texas. It's, you know, all the big cities vote blue.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 59:13

Yeah. Central

Evan Meyer: 59:14

And all the, so like, you know, we can get a long way. So any final words you want to share with your constituents,

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 59:24

Nope.

Evan Meyer: 59:25

out there in the state

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 59:26

a beautiful Ethiopia, Sadamo natural process coffee. And and since we're about to the bottom, I guess the podcast must be over.

Evan Meyer: 59:34

podcast is over, but I will finish it by saying you have a book and it's profiling profiling practicum, a book you wrote. Give me a quick brief on that.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 59:44

I did. I gratuitously put it in the background. It's on coffee roasting. So for all you home roasters or anybody that wants to like go roast your own coffee. Come talk to me.

Evan Meyer: 59:54

Thank you for that book placement. A great pleasure, sir.

Mayor Pro Tem Rhodes: 59:58

And to you, I really enjoyed this.